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Aleksander44
Pridružen/-a: Čet Avg 2020 17:55
Prispevkov: 286
Kraj: Grosuplje
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 Objavljeno: Tor Jan 05, 2021 08:48 Naslov sporočila: |
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Kaj je to? Poudari jutranje meglice? |
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LightBit
Pridružen/-a: Pon Okt 2017 23:11
Prispevkov: 2545
Kraj: Kranj
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| Objavljeno: Tor Jan 05, 2021 09:32 Naslov sporočila: |
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Aleksander44
Pridružen/-a: Čet Avg 2020 17:55
Prispevkov: 286
Kraj: Grosuplje
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| Objavljeno: Tor Jan 05, 2021 09:39 Naslov sporočila: |
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| Sram me je mene samega. Do tega trenutka sem mislil, da se pogovarjam z resnimi ljudmi. Ker so v tem področju dražji izdelki, so očitno magnet za prevarante in bleferje. |
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Bojan65
Pridružen/-a: Sob Feb 2014 19:52
Prispevkov: 41
Kraj: Ljubljana
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| Objavljeno: Tor Jan 05, 2021 10:07 Naslov sporočila: |
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| Aleksander44 je napisal/a: | | Sram me je mene samega. Do tega trenutka sem mislil, da se pogovarjam z resnimi ljudmi. Ker so v tem področju dražji izdelki, so očitno magnet za prevarante in bleferje. |
Z razlogom te je sram!!
Lp., B. |
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  Telefon: 041 761 731 |
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ajka
Pridružen/-a: Tor Maj 2008 10:00
Prispevkov: 3193
Kraj: Sežana
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| Objavljeno: Tor Jan 05, 2021 10:24 Naslov sporočila: |
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| Aleksander44 je napisal/a: | | Sram me je mene samega. Do tega trenutka sem mislil, da se pogovarjam z resnimi ljudmi. Ker so v tem področju dražji izdelki, so očitno magnet za prevarante in bleferje. |
LP
Bi ti morda kaj resnega napisal o kablih prosim, da bomo mi "amaterji" vedeli kaj in kako naj "povežemo" sistem prosim
PS.: Ko napišeš "prevaranti" in "bleferji" moraš to resno argumentirat, ker drugače se ti hitro lahko zgodi, da dobiš "plavo kuverto" s pozivom od ustreznega organa 
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benma
Pridružen/-a: Ned Jan 2011 17:12
Prispevkov: 1631
Kraj: Kamnica
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| Objavljeno: Tor Jan 05, 2021 10:28 Naslov sporočila: |
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| ajka je napisal/a: | | Aleksander44 je napisal/a: | | Sram me je mene samega. Do tega trenutka sem mislil, da se pogovarjam z resnimi ljudmi. Ker so v tem področju dražji izdelki, so očitno magnet za prevarante in bleferje. |
LP
Bi ti morda kaj resnega napisal o kablih prosim, da bomo mi "amaterji" vedeli kaj in kako naj "povežemo" sistem prosim
PS.: Ko napišeš "prevaranti" in "bleferji" moraš to resno argumentirat, ker drugače se ti hitro lahko zgodi, da dobiš "plavo kuverto" s pozivom od ustreznega organa |
@ajka: Ali še nisi ugotovil, da je ignoranca najboljše zdravilo proti takim bedarijam? Zakaj še kar naprej dolagaš drva na ta smrdeči plamen. |
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Aleksander44
Pridružen/-a: Čet Avg 2020 17:55
Prispevkov: 286
Kraj: Grosuplje
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| Objavljeno: Tor Jan 05, 2021 10:42 Naslov sporočila: |
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| ajka, ne vem kaj ti prodajaš. To kar je zadnjih slikah, sodi v to kategorijo. |
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ajka
Pridružen/-a: Tor Maj 2008 10:00
Prispevkov: 3193
Kraj: Sežana
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| Objavljeno: Tor Jan 05, 2021 10:48 Naslov sporočila: |
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| benma je napisal/a: | | ajka je napisal/a: | | Aleksander44 je napisal/a: | | Sram me je mene samega. Do tega trenutka sem mislil, da se pogovarjam z resnimi ljudmi. Ker so v tem področju dražji izdelki, so očitno magnet za prevarante in bleferje. |
LP
Bi ti morda kaj resnega napisal o kablih prosim, da bomo mi "amaterji" vedeli kaj in kako naj "povežemo" sistem prosim
PS.: Ko napišeš "prevaranti" in "bleferji" moraš to resno argumentirat, ker drugače se ti hitro lahko zgodi, da dobiš "plavo kuverto" s pozivom od ustreznega organa |
@ajka: Ali še nisi ugotovil, da je ignoranca najboljše zdravilo proti takim bedarijam? Zakaj še kar naprej dolagaš drva na ta smrdeči plamen. |
LP
Maš prav
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Aleksander44
Pridružen/-a: Čet Avg 2020 17:55
Prispevkov: 286
Kraj: Grosuplje
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| Objavljeno: Tor Jan 05, 2021 10:56 Naslov sporočila: |
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| ajka je napisal/a: |
Bi ti morda kaj resnega napisal o kablih prosim, da bomo mi "amaterji" |
V kolikor priporočaš, zagovarjaš ali celo prodajaš produkte "proizvajalcev", ki jih je na slikah objavil LightBit, se niti slučajno ne mislim spustiti na tvoj nivo.
Med tem, da bi resno debatirali npr. o spodjem tekstu, ki ga prepričan sem, ne razumeš in tvojimi pripročili je ogromen prepad:
Skin-effect is the effect resulting from a delay in the change of the magnetic field relative to a change in current. The faster the change in the current (higher frequencies or a single fast transition like lightning), the more significant the relative delay in change to the previously existing magnetic field. The old magnetic field is in the way, forcing the new current to go around the existing magnetic field, therefor there is only 100% current density on the surface or skin of the “conductor.” Skin-effect is why you’re safe from lighting in a car or on a plane … Lightning is one-way, being in that sense DC, but the pulse is very high frequency, and so the magnetic field inside an airplane prevents lightning from traveling except on the skin of the airplane.
More skin-effect means less current density away from the surface of the conductor … the opposite of what you wrote. All conductors have 100% current density at all frequencies at the surface, and nowhere else (if the conductor is the universe of concern, of course no conductor is so perfect, whether due to dielectric involvement or proximity to other conductors). Skin-effect does not describe properties at the surface, it only describes properties away from the surface.
You are correct that it is higher frequencies which are more affected by skin-effect. The notion of some strands for bass and some for treble is pretty much BS, though I do recognize MIT’s point other electrical values could make the “treble strands” part of a high-pass network.
The common insanity in our world is that “we” are as wrong as the naysayers. When some engineer with poor use of language says/writes that “there’s no such thing as skin-effect at audio frequencies,” they are of course dead wrong, but they almost always mean “there is no relevant loss of amplitude at audio frequencies at the lengths I use in my home.” That second version is totally factual, while the first was as wrong as denying the earth goes around the sun.
“Our” insanity is that the normal enlightened response is to cite that no, even an 18 AWG (1.02mm) conductor has a 1/e, or 74% reduction in current density at 20kHz at the center. True, but so what, if the conductor was a donut with no center at all, it could still carry enough current to kill you and blow up your speakers at the same time.
What makes skin-effect a very real problem for analog audio is that there is a 1:1 rise in inductance along with the rise in impedance away from the surface of the conductor. This causes smearing in time: there is less and less current at progressively greater distances from the surface, that current is farther and farther behind the correct information at the surface of the conductor. The phase delay would be trivial if it were group delay, but as a smearing, the information arriving spread over time, it totally messes with our brain/computer’s expectations and algorithms. Depending on the particular AWG size, this causes a combination of seeming loss of high-frequencies at the same time as a subjective amplitude roller-coaster. The loss of bass weight, the very tight but constipated mid-bass, the seemingly projected upper midrange and “rolled-off” highs are all phenomena created in the brain … there is no relevant change or loss of amplitude at audio frequencies! … and of course not at 50 or 60Hz.
Much of the “brightness,” or “treble tilt,” or pity the stupid reviewers who write about cable having a “rising top end,” of a stranded cable is due to surface interaction between strands. Copper oxides are semiconductors, in an environment in which the conductivity of the connection between strands is dynamic, and the contact pressure (due to rule of rights) is also dynamic. This mostly explains the typically hashy sound of bare stranded conductors.
Silver-Plated conductors sound horrible for analog audio, while being an inexpensive way to improve the performance of a digital or video cable. At audio frequencies, the phase change from incrementally more conductive silver on the surface to less conductive copper suffering slightly higher inductance underneath the silver, creates in our brains that obnoxious tweeter-in-your-face effect. If calling this a “rising top end” were accurate, the world wouldn’t need fossil fuels for cold fusion, all the world would need is bad-sounding wire which provides more current coming out than went in!
A group of strands is a single conductor, subject to skin-effect. If the strands are anything other than concentric, and as the path of least resistance is towards the surface of the conductor, current is “forced” to jump from strand to strand — though the impossibly complex distortion mechanism of variable-conductivity variable-contact-pressure connections in-between strands. Simple fact is, stranded or solid, conductors have more audio frequency distortion the more they are bigger than 20 AWG. Only the imperfectness of the conductivity between strands prevents the skin-effect of a bare stranded conductor from essentially equalling the skin-effect of a same-AWG solid conductor
If the strands are magnet wire, the hash is pretty much eliminated, but the magnetic confusion remains, causing a typical out-of-focus effect, maybe more clearly revealed without the hashy-bright flaw to distract. As a litz cable (not the German word litz=strand, but the English) has to have an inner geometry such that over length every strand has the same impedance as every other strand at all frequencies, the strands have to occupy all possible positions within the conductor in order to achieve this average quality … which ensures maximum magnetic confusion for an analog audio signal, which is pretty much not a problem for a modulated signal feeding an FM broadcast antenna, or a radar installation, or whatever. (I have a sample of 6” diameter litz cable used for NORAD). |
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MAre007
Pridružen/-a: Čet Dec 2010 10:23
Prispevkov: 605
Kraj: Ljubljana
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| Objavljeno: Tor Jan 05, 2021 11:15 Naslov sporočila: |
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| JAZZZ je napisal/a: | | MAre007 je napisal/a: |
Ha, ha, a sedaj pa že 10.000 € ... sicer le ena nula več 
JAZZZ, si tudi v studiju iskal zvočno ravnovesje z menjavami kablov?
lp MAre |
Na srečo se prispevki na forumu ne brišejo, torej lahko stojim za stavkom "Mare007, ti LAŽEŠ". Za jurjo se takega testa (preberi si, kako sem si ga zamišljal) ne bi nikoli lotil- za koga le? Če pa si ti tako prepričan v svoje trditve pa naberi znesek(lahko vas da več skupaj) in ga naredimo . |
Ja JAZZZ tokrat si imel 100% prav. Zmotil sem se oz. pozabil točno številko - vmes je minilo 10 let. Presenetilo me je, da je bila tako velika ... Ti pa nisi pozabil ... to bi bil skoraj loto dobitek
Sicer pa normalen objektiven test ne bi smel zahtevati nobenih denarnih vložkov, sploh ne tako velikih. Niti tvoje ponudbe nikoli nisem jemal resno, kot tudi ostali, ampak bolj kot napenjanje mišic
Saj nekako se je takrat v debati le ugotovilo, da kakovostne komponente že same vsebujejo ustrezne elektromagnetne filtre, pri tehnično slabših izvedbah pa je seveda povsem možno, da notri nenadzorovano zaidejo motnje, ki se potem kot zvočni signal prenesejo vse do membrane zvočnika. Tudi preko napajalnih kablov, kar je kar žalostno.
Zato se mi zdi pomembno, da ima tudi avdiofil sistem "pod svojim nadzorom". Če se pa zadeve menja na pamet, po občutku, jih kupuje po zunanjosti, je res težko, priznam.
lp MAre
Nazadnje urejal/a MAre007 Tor Jan 05, 2021 11:27; skupaj popravljeno 4 krat |
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ambasador
Pridružen/-a: Sre Feb 2011 19:52
Prispevkov: 6263
Kraj: Izola
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| Objavljeno: Tor Jan 05, 2021 11:18 Naslov sporočila: |
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| NCC2000 je napisal/a: | ...........
So se ti tvoji dobri debeli kabli v kateri izmed kombinacij naprav, ki si jih stestiral, izkazali tudi slabša izbira od katerih drugih? |
Niti pod razno, razlog je tudi ta, da spadajo še kar visoko in pri roki nisem imel poštenega konkurenta.
Moje zahteve okoli naprav in kablov so specifične: ker se ukvarjam z razvojem gramofona (lani sem se z razvojem zvočnika za petstrunsko bas kitaro), potrebujem hifi ki je bolj na nevtralni strani, da vem kaj delam in pravilno ocenim posege. Torej me odbijajo vse komponente, ki nosijo očiten 'štempelj', zvočni podpis ki kolorira zvok. Vključno s kabli. Za interkonekte in phono kabel uporabljam AudioTekne, zvočniški pa ta VDH.
Veliko avdiofilov, kadar si nabavijo novo komponento, hoče da ta 'naredi' nekaj. Evo, pri meni je ravno nasprotno - nočem da kabel naredi karkoli drugega kot samo spusti skozi. Če zaradi tega s čim nisem zadovoljen - moram poiskati izvor/vzrok in problem tam odpraviti.
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Ima pa moj sistem limit pri resoluciji in naprimer ko sem doma primerjal AudioQuest Niagara interkonekte (tiste z baterijo za polarizacijo izolacije) z mojimi AudioTekne, praktično nisem zaznal razlike, zvočna prezentacija praktično identična/ po principu če je potrebno napenjati ušesa, potem je isto.
Sem pa v veliko pasažah 'zavohal' potencial (večjo resolucijo) in mi je jasno da kje drugje zaradi tega zleze pod kožo.
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Carpe Diem |
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LightBit
Pridružen/-a: Pon Okt 2017 23:11
Prispevkov: 2545
Kraj: Kranj
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| Objavljeno: Tor Jan 05, 2021 11:28 Naslov sporočila: |
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@ambasador Mogoče je bila pa baterija prazna ...
Se opravičujem, ne morem se nehat smejat. |
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ambasador
Pridružen/-a: Sre Feb 2011 19:52
Prispevkov: 6263
Kraj: Izola
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| Objavljeno: Tor Jan 05, 2021 11:36 Naslov sporočila: |
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| LightBit je napisal/a: | @ambasador Mogoče je bila pa baterija prazna ...
Se opravičujem, ne morem se nehat smejat. |
Vidiš kako zabaven hobi imamo. Eni uživamo s kurjo poltjo v spektakularni glasbi, drugim pa gre na smeh.
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Carpe Diem |
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Aleksander44
Pridružen/-a: Čet Avg 2020 17:55
Prispevkov: 286
Kraj: Grosuplje
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| Objavljeno: Tor Jan 05, 2021 11:56 Naslov sporočila: |
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Watch out if a Cable Vendor or Manufacturer:
Promotes that their product allegedly eliminates audio related Skin Effect and/or "Strand Jumping" problems.
Claims revolutionary breakthrough in cable technology by polarizing or biasing the dielectric using a battery.
Promotes that their products eliminate "Audiogenic", "Diode Rectification" or any type of non linear distortions. See Debunking the Myth of Cable Distortion and Dielectric Biasing
Physically places (+) and (-) wire leads in separate dielectrics not closely spaced in a common jacket. See: Calculating Cable Inductance of Twin Feeder Cables
Claims vast improvements in sound by inserting "Cable Elevators" to raise the cables off the floor and minimize electron misfiring or static energy fields.
Claims that cryogenically freezing cables improves fidelity or measurably changes electrical properties after the cable is restored to room temperature.
Claims that their cables require a "Break In" period.
Claims that measurements cannot quantify why their designs are superior and often misapply engineering principles in their reasoning but abandon the associated governing laws and metrics that establish them.
Claims audible differences exist between stranded and non-stranded wires of same gauge rating, geometry and conductor spacing.
Claims audible differences between silver and copper cables of equal design geometry and gauge. |
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ambasador
Pridružen/-a: Sre Feb 2011 19:52
Prispevkov: 6263
Kraj: Izola
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| Objavljeno: Tor Jan 05, 2021 12:10 Naslov sporočila: |
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@aleksander44:
ne verjamem da bo nekdo z budžetom 2000€ za celoten hifi to potrošil za en sam inetrkonekt.
Tisti ko pa si lahko to privoščijo - ga sprobajo.
Če jih prepriča - kupijo.
Če jih ne prepriča - ne kupijo.
Če kupijo brez poslušanja - njihov problem in konec koncev slabše od AudiTekne (kar je dosti ok) ne bo.
Ergo - WHO CARES??
Ali bomo ustanovili sindikat za zaščito bogatih pred nesmiselnim trošenjem denarja? Poleg tega da še vedno ne vemo koliko je nesmiselno.
Koga svarijo dobrodelno dobromiselni članki in pred čim? - ali so to morda samo nameštaljke konkurenčnih firm, ki poskušajo odvrniti kupce od konkurence? Teh kupcev navsezadnje niti ni tako veliko, če jih porazdeliš med 30-40 firm haj klas kablov, ki se gnetejo okoli denarnic, hahaha
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Naj spomnim na legendarnega Moronija, ki je ob priliki testa takrat najdražjega ojačevalca ONGAKU rekel tako:
- vprašali me boste ali je smiselno potrošiti 150 miljonov lir za ojačevalec?
- odgovarjam da veliko bolj smiselno kot ta isti denar potrošiti za Ferrari in se na prvi vožnji napičiti v drevo
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Carpe Diem |
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| Nazaj na vrh |
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Ne, ne moreš dodajati novih tem v tem forumu
Ne, ne moreš odgovarjati na teme v tem forumu
Ne, ne moreš urejati svojih prispevkov v tem forumu
Ne, ne moreš brisati svojih prispevkov v tem forumu
Ne ne moreš glasovati v anketi v tem forumu
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